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Post by Jamie on Jan 15, 2013 12:38:50 GMT -5
I'm thinking about this from a quality of life/selfish point of view now and have decided that I can not deny the fact that he IS too weak to put survive something like this. If this was caught before the top teeth were growing into his bottom jaws, I think it could have been controlled. This is obviously malo. I can't say he didn't have things to chew on from his old owner. All cages they came in had wooden huts and other chew toys. We know this happens with some rodents, so I think I will go in and speak to the tech about putting him to sleep. Hugs you guys. I'm at a loss. Don't know if what I'm doing if right, but my gut is telling me it is and I think I need to listen to it this time. Mandy... I have only put one animal to sleep in all my 57 years of life and that was a little mouse called Lilly I cried all the way to the vet , I asked myself ..who am I to play GOD and I struggled as I kissed her head,,and the doctor came back with her wrapped in a towel. I must say though.. she was suffering, she couldnt walk, she had labored breathing, she had lumps on her.. probably cancer and the peaceful body that was returned to me was just that ...peaceful. I know there are philosophies and religions all that explain what happens after we pass and we of course often quote the "rainbow bridge" Personally though I have "faith" I cant with all honesty tell you where we go, if we go, when we die but I can tell you with 100 percent certainty when a guardian of a pet , like you ...who loves with every morsel of their being, who is knowledgeable, who has asked an expert or two their opinion gives a gift of taking pain and suffering away you have done the right thing. You know pets.. teeth overgrown like that may be able to be filed but if he has stopped eating, and in stasis ..theres nothing any doctor that I know on this planet can do. We/ I am with you with the emotional choice you might make today do it with your kindness and you will be doing the work of angels Jamie
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Post by twiggles1 on Jan 15, 2013 12:52:14 GMT -5
I'm thinking about this from a quality of life/selfish point of view now and have decided that I can not deny the fact that he IS too weak to put survive something like this. If this was caught before the top teeth were growing into his bottom jaws, I think it could have been controlled. This is obviously malo. I can't say he didn't have things to chew on from his old owner. All cages they came in had wooden huts and other chew toys. We know this happens with some rodents, so I think I will go in and speak to the tech about putting him to sleep. Hugs you guys. I'm at a loss. Don't know if what I'm doing if right, but my gut is telling me it is and I think I need to listen to it this time. Mandy... I have only put one animal to sleep in all my 57 years of life and that was a little mouse called Lilly I cried all the way to the vet , I asked myself ..who am I to play GOD and I struggled as I kissed her head,,and the doctor came back with her wrapped in a towel. I must say though.. she was suffering, she couldnt walk, she had labored breathing, she had lumps on her.. probably cancer and the peaceful body that was returned to me was just that ...peaceful. I know there are philosophies and religions all that explain what happens after we pass and we of course often quote the "rainbow bridge" Personally though I have "faith" I cant with all honesty tell you where we go, if we go, when we die but I can tell you with 100 percent certainty when a guardian of a pet , like you ...who loves with every morsel of their being, who is knowledgeable, who has asked an expert or two their opinion gives a gift of taking pain and suffering away you have done the right thing. You know pets.. teeth overgrown like that may be able to be filed but if he has stopped eating, and in stasis ..theres nothing any doctor that I know on this planet can do. We/ I am with you with the emotional choice you might make today do it with your kindness and you will be doing the work of angels Jamie Wow. I don't think Ive ever heard this put quite eloquently as this before, I was tearing up reading it. Jamie is right, Mandy, it's the last, kindest gift we can give them; taking away the pain and the fear that comes with that pain. I'm so sorry you have to make a decision like this :-(. Thanks for being a kind person. Laurie
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Post by molpie on Jan 15, 2013 15:46:52 GMT -5
Mandy, your story so moves me, not just because of little Spiderman (yes, I think that's a perfect name) and how you've gone saved HIS life, but because you have clearly touched the hearts and lives of the humans you have worked with and around at the shelter to such a degree that THEIR hearts, minds, LIVES have shifted - BECAUSE OF YOU. That is huge, Mandy. HUGE. I know you have worked very very hard, and often have had what has felt like an uphill battle to get to a place where you have felt heard. Well. I think you've made it. You've not only gotten folks to respect and listen to your well-thought out, deliberate, educational messaages about these critters that you (we all) care so much about, but you have managed to be heard in a much deeper level - a heart and soul kind of level - without even having to do anything other than to be yourself. I mean, this vet didn't have to do anything, wasn't expecting to do anythign other than to euthanize. Instead, they TREATED, for the FIRST TIME EVER, a creature they had no initial intention of treating, and no experience treating, and no authorization to treat, I suppose, either, let's be frank. YOU PAVED THE WAY FOR THAT TO HAPPEN, Mandy, and I can guarantee it never would have happened without you. Whatever happens with Spiderman (and I will wish him blossoming health), THAT is the greatest beauty in this story, to me. Thank you, Mandy, for just being who you are, and for being "out there", even though that's not always easy, and for touching those lives - both human and non. Mo
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Post by molpie on Jan 15, 2013 15:58:14 GMT -5
P.S. OK. Technical details now - are we talking overgrown incisor(s)? Molars? What's the status of ALL his teeth if I may ask, and does anyone know what the cause of the problem originally might have been (i.e. could he have lost/cracked or otherwise damaged one of his incisors, causing it to fall out - which would have messed up the rest of his teeth in turn - THAT would not be a misalignment issue and relatively easily "fixed" if you can get him through this initial recovery period and chewing again with what teeth he has left....) This is probably all stuff you're on top of, I know, but I'm curious interested now, too. Spiderman's already caught MY heart, too. Go figure. Rock on, Mandy!!! Mo
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Post by Jamie on Jan 15, 2013 16:10:50 GMT -5
I have just gotten back with 6 of my 7 birds nail clips, beaks,wings
Pretty bird bit Jaspers foot when he jumped on her cage and then we had a bloody foot... fortunately no major damage but Im glad I was in the good doctors office while this occurred
its beyond beautiful and thrilling to hear this news about spiderman
wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
thank you Mandy Jamie
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Post by twiggles1 on Jan 15, 2013 19:58:26 GMT -5
I'm very glad Spider-Man is still with you !! Healing thoughts being sent your way ! Laurie (twiggles1)
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Post by Jamie on Jan 15, 2013 22:26:58 GMT -5
I am not a vet and I guess she/he was airing on the side of caution but just from the outside looking in the tooth that was pulled was making it completely impossible to eat or survive I surely hope spiderman thrives
the picture is adorable and has no influenced me to clean the darn gerbil home
hugs Jamie
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Post by molpie on Jan 16, 2013 3:15:53 GMT -5
Oh, gerbils are just so darn cute. I can't believe I'm saying that on a CHINCHILLA forum, because chinchillas are about the very definition of cute. But my gosh. Your little guy up there. SOOOOO cute.
Appreciate your drawn pic. That's pretty cute, itself, though the subject is not so happy, of course. I'm a little confused, though. I thought Spiderman had ONE tooth pulled, and it looks like he had two incisors going weird directions. No indication of what his molars look like, but I'm sure that will come. I'll be very interested in how he does and definitely in what the vet tells you tomorrow (this will be your regular vet, right? One who's handled all your critters, and is more experienced with all the little guys, right?).
I'm not quite sure what to make of it, myself, but then again, I'm not a vet and not the one looking at him. Things about this seem weird to me... one tooth, two teeth(?) overgrown to the point of growing sideways, but the opposing teeth are fine? That's weird. I have to wonder if there's something odd going on here - not misaligned teeth (if so, they would have killed him long ago I'd think) but maybe he got dropped or something - something that maybe injured his top incisors - cracked them under the gumline maybe, or loosened them? Something that might make them come out, or gradually SLIDE out, but not all the way - enough to cause his problems eating and emaciation, but not enough to cause long-term overgrowth of the bottom incisors?
Seems to me I've seen something like this in a gerbil once before. Not a pretty sight, if I recall. Tooth slid right out, once we figured out what was going on. Did OK, though, once we DID figure out what was going on, I think. Long time ago, though, so I'm not sure I'm remembering quite clearly. I don't really know, though. I'm just thinking/wondering out loud. Again, I'm not a vet and I can't see him, so I'll stop trying to second guess what's going on. I will just hope he does very well overnight, and will be very interested to hear what the report from the vet is tomorrow.
Will be thinking of you.
Mo
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Post by molpie on Jan 16, 2013 18:14:40 GMT -5
Hmmm. I still find it very interesting that his top teeth would be so out of whack in relation to his bottom teeth. In theory, they ought to be equally out of whack, I'd think. I find it puzzling. And I'm still interested in what his molars look like, and if THEY'RE overgrown, and how much, and such. That ought to give some clues, too (if the answer's not obvious in a closer examination of the front). Again, I'm very interested in what the later report is.
I can't say whether or not the teeth will grow back. Depends on whether what damage has been done to his mouth, I suppose, as to whether he will remain toothless. I'm trying to strain my brain to come up with what happened with that one gerbil wAAAAY back in my memory banks somewhere, and I think he actually grew his teeth or tooth back - think it was a cracked thing that didn't affect the deep down root... but I may be just making stuff up at this point. I'm really not remembering anything clearly, honestly. I'm really hoping for Spiderman. I'll look forward to whatever you post later on!!
Mo
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Post by molpie on Jan 16, 2013 23:30:32 GMT -5
Oh. MY. Gosh. If you weren't really far away from me, Mandy, I think I'd be in trouble. I'm totally in love with this little guy. Even have him named in my heart (and his sisters, too, btw). I know. Get a grip, right? Sheesh. Plenty of gerbils in MY neck of the woods, I'm quite sure. But boy... I've never been so utterly captivated by just a PHOTO before. Sigh. Anyway. Back to reality. Are you thinking you might let this little guy live with Dad, if dad gets a good report on Monday?? Just wondering. Mo
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Post by Jodi on Jan 17, 2013 0:33:13 GMT -5
Beautiful babes Mandy!
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Post by molpie on Jan 17, 2013 13:15:15 GMT -5
Ohhh. That doesn't sound too good about Spiderman, but I know you are, and have been, doing the very best for him. Whatever happens, I know that's true, and I hope you do, too. Well, I'm almost embarrassed to share names for critters I have never even met. It's a little weird. Usually naming is kind of a big deal for me and the names have to "click" with their personalities, so this is a first. But obviously some part of me couldn't help myself. So. Here you go. Of course you can take or leave whatever names you like or don't like - as you wish: For that beautiful little boy: Hamlet popped into my mind. Don't know why. Second was Henry. For his Sisters? Lilah (light colored one) and Zoe/Zoey (dark). Yep. A little obsessed, can we say? Lol. Probably. But you've gotta admit that even in the photographs, these gerbils are simply beautiful and precious. And for someone who's real "first love" in the small critter world was gerbils, well.... it's easy for them to melt my heart. Best to you Mandy, and ALL your furry companions, fosters, shelter charges and all the rest. Mo
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Post by piratesmom on Jan 17, 2013 16:14:28 GMT -5
Awwww ... sooooooo cute pictures!!!!!!!!!! Mo, we are actually an ALL-pet-Forum, just with a bit more Chinchilla-owners but usual. *lol* Ilka
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Post by Jodi on Jan 18, 2013 0:09:48 GMT -5
Great stuff Mandy I'm looking forward to the video!
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Post by twiggles1 on Jan 18, 2013 10:43:16 GMT -5
This morning. He wont bother to open his eyes unless I pick him up and then he's kind of forced to. He doesn't like me picking him up even though at the shelter I could. I don't want to worry you, but it sounds like he needs to go back to the vet. I know when my chin let the food (critical care) just fall out of their mouth without trying to swallow or fight, it means they've given up. I'm surprised he didn't get some sort of medication for pain and/or to prevent infection. I know from personal experience that having a tooth pulled HURTS :-( good luck with him today. Take care, Laurie
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Post by Jamie on Jan 18, 2013 11:33:13 GMT -5
they must have given pain meds no doc would pull a tooth and not...
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Post by Jamie on Jan 18, 2013 15:26:23 GMT -5
We just got back from the shelter where he was given more fluids. Less than last time. Only pushed 3cc this time to make sure we werent overloading. I held him this time while he got them. (I felt bad..it took 4 sticks) But he needed it. I was also given a special syringe that curves and has a longer end so I can put it into he's cheek area (near the throat) and he has /is forced to swallow. I also got the full story. They did NOT pull the teeth. He must be older (or had an injury, but I'm leaning towards older unless he has a vitamin defe) because they went to CLIP his teeth, but when they put pressure down on the teeth with the clippers, the teeth fell out. They did not break off..merely were loose. So, there it is. She said she probably could've gotten it out with her fingers if she tried. in that case ...he has probably a great deal of relief and not much pain I remember having a loose tooth on a trip to Boston for 2 days I of course couldnt eat with pleasure I would hit the tooth every 2 seconds with my tongue sometimes to a real painful feeling, sometimes just total annoyance. When it fell out I was eating at the best seafood place in Massachusetts and I was so sad that the lobster I was having couldnt be enjoyed then the tooth fell out and I felt so good ... that I was past being overjoyed. With your care I have great hopes that he is gonna do really well and if anyone can give the loving care he may require for life its you and your mom Mandy cool Jamie
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Post by molpie on Jan 18, 2013 23:46:20 GMT -5
Oh... Mandy, I'm concerned about how Spiderman is looking and how you describe his behavior. He sounds like he's very uncomfortable/painful at the very least, and I, personally, would not wait until Monday if it were me. Given that he is so uncomfortable, I am suspicious that there was always more to the story than simply "loose teeth". I would ask the vet what the teeth looked like when they came out - whether there were broken ends, or whether they seemed to come ALL the way COMPLETELY out? I suspect it will be the former, if they were looking closely, and if they were looking even closer, I would ask if there were any signs of infection on the ends of those teeth. We do not know how long they might have been injured or broken (if they were), although the fact that they were causing problems long enough to cause him to lose the amount of weight he did says something. Not good. He could very well have developed abscesses or other secondary injury or discomfort internally due to those broken ends, or due some kind of exposure of his broken teeth to his open tooth canals to bacteria that woudln't normally have opportunities to thrive in such environments. I don't really know, but looking at Spiderman, I am guessing there's more going on here and that if it's not addressed by a knowledgable vet very quickly, he may not make it to Monday. Actually, I woudln't bother to ask the shelter vet anything, I suppose. Doesn't matter. I'd just take him to the vet you trust most at this point. Period. I hope they're open on Saturdays. Really hope. I know how expensive Emergency vets can be. (BOY do we all here know about THAT!) I'm not trying to be an alarmist, but I know gerbils can go down very quickly, and he's just not looking, or sounding like he's acting, well at all. We'll all be thinking of you and crossing our fingers, toes, tails and paws for you and Spiderman. On another note, the pups are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO cute. THanks for sharing them. M.
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Post by Jamie on Jan 19, 2013 9:25:52 GMT -5
The vet is closed now..we have to wait until Monday. He's actually looking better. I think he did just need more fluids to perk up. This morning he popped his head up to see me when I woke up and tapped his carrier (I decided to leave him in his carrier on a heating pad as I'm sleeping downstairs/on the sofa for the weekend) I got the special syringe, and figures once I do that and get baby food he takes to it like normal. I just push the baby food in FRONT of his lips (cant even try to put it IN his mouth) and he'll eat until he's had his full. He even tries to move the food around with his paws. (: I talked to the vet last night, so he's updated. They said his teeth looked very old-like, Like when a cat or dog is old..they get 'out of shape' and 'discolored'. They said they kind all kind of looked like that.. which I can understand. I love hearing this Love the picture and though we all have compassion in our hearts and know that it is sometimes a gift to let someone "go" I also think strongly that there is a magic on this planet that the sick can heal, that we need patience and that we won't (they wont" always look great while healing. I have taken many of our pet friends from hell to a great life and that's what I hope is happening here. .. Mandy..you are doing a wonderful job and I am proud of you Jamie
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Post by mookdeer on Jan 19, 2013 10:58:33 GMT -5
Won't let me watch
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