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Post by narnibird on Dec 10, 2010 1:43:10 GMT -5
I don't want it to seem like I'm tooting my own horn, because that is not my intention in *any* way. I honestly am the kind of person that gives credit where it is due, and with the chins we take in, others can tell you, the credit is almost always due with the chins themselves. We were contacted last July by a kind woman who rescued a trio of girls from horrible conditions. Two of the girls had malo, one had it very badly. She constantly drooled, she was severely underweight. She was honestly in such bad condition that the lady and I both thought she would die. Her teeth roots were so overgrown, she had head tilt. This poor chin was in worse shape than the lady could handle, she needed a lot of help and work. We had to make a little room, secured a foster home for one of the chins who was with us, and after about a month we took in the girls. My husband brought them home (he drove out of state to get them), and the first thing that hit me (aside from their pitiful conditions) was the smell. The three girls were soaked in cat pee! I have no idea what they went through before they were rescued, but I can imagine. It's sickening. I couldn't get pictures or weights at all, my first thought was to get them clean. So we gave them dust baths 24/7. Even before water or food, I put the baths straight in with them. It was horrible, they were sticky, they stunk, they were skin and bones. I just cried, it was that awful. Normally you'd wash them with water, but because 2 of the girls had malo, we stuck with only dust. With malo chins, it is very important to maintain their weight. In order to do that, they have to stay warm. Hence, we ruled out the water baths, I felt it was too risky. It took weeks, but their fur eventually cleaned up. They weighed in at (Esperanza) 515, (Asherah) 481, and (Aviva) 612. Aviva was the healthiest, the one with no tooth issues. At the last weigh-in, they were (E) 585, (Ash) 519 and (Aviva) 640. The next task was to get them on proper diets. I have done years of reading and research on this. I have discovered that calcium, for whatever reason, heals a lot of ailments in chinchillas. I have discovered that grains (oats, wheat, etc) *block* calcium absorption. They are high in phosphorus and have no (or very little) calcium. The phosphorus binds to calcium, and prevents the body from absorbing it. I have learned that vitamin C helps the body absorb calcium, and that vitamin D (found in alfalfa) also helps. I have learned that chins with malo often (not always, but most of the time) have a calcium deficiency. So, we give all malo chins here a no-added-phosphorus diet. They get only calcium, only herbs that have calcium, and they never get grains of any kind, they don't even get Calf Manna. I found (from Donna at http://www.chinchillas4life.co.uk) that Beaphar makes a hard pellet for chinchillas that wears down teeth. We special order that from the UK every month and we give it to all the chins here who have malo (or are in the beginning stages of malo). We gave the girls the pellets, the special herb supplement I mix, TUMS, Critical Care balls, and alfalfa hay. Chins with malo tend to not be able to absorb calcium properly, and so they are able to eat alfalfa free-fed with no ill side effects. There is the added benefit of the stalks wearing down their teeth. I don't know if you guys remember this or not, but I'm that crazy person that, a few years ago, started advocating that chins eat apple leaves and dehydrated veggies. We give the veggies to the chins here as treats. Those veggies also help wear down teeth. There was a huge hooplah over that, but I'm telling you again that it works. These girls, Esperanza (the one we expected would die) and Asherah had malo when they came. Esperanza needed to get her teeth filed and trimmed at least once a month when she came. Her teeth were in HORRIBLE condition. Asherah needed hers done every other month or so. It is documented. Our vet has Esperanza's x-rays. They HAD malo when they came. On this diet, their malo has reversed. It is truly a miracle. Neither girl has to have her teeth filed or trimmed while she is on this diet. Esperanza's head tilt is completely gone. We had a horrible situation occur where our letter carrier returned our food to the UK instead of delivering it to us. We went a month without the special food. We had to bring Esperanza in to get her teeth filed and trimmed. She is back on the pellets, and her teeth are fine again. I just have to tell someone. I am so excited, I am so thrilled. People said it can't be done, but I knew from Donna in the UK that it was possible, at least on some level. We have had this happen with Rhody, Bentley, Mei-Mei, Pepper, Asherah, Esperanza and Nadia. None of them has any symptoms at all. I am not saying in any way that this is a cure, but it is a very effective way to approach malo. You of course need a good quality vet for all the medical care, but it would not be bad to also follow this diet, if you have a chin with malo. This was Esperanza: We named her Esperanza because we wanted her to find hope here, and a reason to fight to survive. This is Esperanza now. You can see that she has stopped drooling. Her fur by her mouth and on her hands is stained, but it is regrowing and getting cleaner: Here is Asherah (named after the goddess, but the root of her name is hope or happiness): And here is Aviva (Hebrew name for "spring", a season of hope): These girls are so precious. Despite everything, they are friendly. They are happier, they love to come up to say hi, though they still shy away from touch. They chew voraciously, they eat tremendously, they eat massive piles of hay. I'm just so happy they could come. I'm so happy that someone became a foster home and helped this to happen, and I am eternally thankful that Esperanza had it in her to fight to survive until she got here (and after she arrived). We are so lucky, you guys. My husband and I, we are so lucky to be able to welcome these chins into our home. It's hard, it will always be hard, and I will cry a lot, but it is so worth it, when something like this happens.
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chobi333
Full Member
My chobi <3
Posts: 121
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Post by chobi333 on Dec 10, 2010 10:14:59 GMT -5
WOW . . an amazing story. I think it is VERY interesting to hear and I am GLAD you posted about this. The picture of Esperanza was sad to see but I am so glad that she is looking so much better now. Is there anyway you can detail their diet a little. That way if some of us NEED to do something similar we can consider your method? I am interested to read about how wheat is a calcium blocker. I had been giving my chin shredded wheat 1 - 2 times a week as a snack but perhaps I should quit? What about the TUMS ?? Can / should that be given to a chin every so often? I think a lot of us here would love to have some more info Thank YOU !
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Post by Essentia on Dec 10, 2010 11:41:41 GMT -5
A calcium supplemt (like tums) should only be given it a chinchilla needs the excess calcium. A chins teeth should be an orange color. If they are light yellow, or white they definitely need additional calcium. If a chinchilla is on a high quality, alfalfa based pellet (Oxbow, Mazuri, PRCS, Manna Pro, Nutrena) they usually do not need any additional calcium help (unless it is a chicnhilla with malo, like the above situation).
As for wheat, I have cut out the majority of grain (oats, wheat, etc.) in my chin's diet. I still give the periodic shreddie or oats, but not half as much as before I knew about grains and how high they are in phosphorus. Basically think of it like this:
Calcium/Phosphorus should always be 2:1. Oats 0.05%/0.34%, and Wheatbran/germ 0.13%/1.13% - much more than the recommended 2:1. The more grain the chin eats, the less calcium its body is actually absorbing.
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Post by jean on Dec 10, 2010 12:39:08 GMT -5
marne, i remember you writing about these guys before, i'm so glad that everything has worked out for them.. i really am, i have happy tears..
i'm just a bit confused tho, the routes actually got better by this diet you did?
jean
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Post by booboo on Dec 10, 2010 14:50:37 GMT -5
Wow Marne. That's awesome! Glad the food from the UK is working. Now you just need a better mail carrier who doesn't return your packages.
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Post by narnibird on Dec 10, 2010 14:52:40 GMT -5
Sure, chobi! The diet we use, like Essentia said, a lot of it should only be done for malo chins, or chins who are likely to develop it. It won't hurt a regular chin, but a regular chin can have a lot more variety so I don't really see a need to follow this diet strictly for them. They can have any part of this diet, though, like they can have the supplement, or the alfalfa hay, or the special pellets, and it won't hurt them. I just don't know what this calcium-focused diet would do for a regularly healthy chin. We give malo chins only rosehips for treats, rosebuds, or our calcium-herb mix. That mix is equal weights of (all organic) alfalfa leaf, chamomile flower, crushed rosehips, peppermint leaf, and basil. I really don't care if anyone makes it, I really don't care if anyone wants to sell it. Go for it, it is a basic, safe supplement. The alfalfa leaf encourages the body to absorb calcium. The chamomile helps the chin to relax and is a general mood support. The rosehips have vitamin C, which encourages calcium absorption, and after a large study, a chin rescue (CA Chins) organization discovered it strengthens the root sockets in chins. (The study stopped there as far as I know, so we aren't sure if it was the vitamin C that did it, or if it was the extra calcium that was being absorbed because of the added vitamin C, or what, we just know that it works for some reason). The peppermint is an appetite stimulant, which is very important for malo chins. The basil is a general mood relaxer. None of these have any real amount of phosphorus, but they all have calcium. They get that every day on their pellets, just a pinch. Then, when they first start, they get a calcium powder that is mixed with alfalfa powder and rosehip powder. I love this stuff, it's something any chin can have on occasion, and it has helped many chins here with different health issues. If you don't want to use a powder, you can give them a regular-strength, fruit-flavored TUMS a day. Regular chins, like Essentia said, don't need a TUMS a day, but they can have one on occasion. For bad cases, we give the powder and the TUMS every day, just because their bodies are so deficient of calcium, they need it anywhere they can get it. They get only alfalfa hay. It's high in vitamin D, and that helps the chins absorb the calcium that is in alfalfa. It's more appealing to the chins than grass hays, and the stalks are good for wearing down their teeth. All those things work well, but the best part of the diet is the pellet. We don't have the same results if we don't include the pellets. Those are only sold in Europe (for now), it costs $21 to get 3.3 pounds shipped to the east coast and Texas. If you have one chin, they will last a long time, and honestly, the cost is worth it if it means you don't have to pay for monthly tooth trimmings/filings. Those pellets are Beaphar XtraVital Care+ Premium Chinchilla Food . They are here: www.equinecaninefeline.com/catalog/xtravital-care-premium-chinchilla-food-beaphar-15kg-p-1706.html It is the only store I could find that would ship to the US. Those pellets are amazing. They have a problem of dietary-related malo in the UK. Beaphar came up with this pellet, it is extruded, which means all the ingredients are put together in the pot, mixed up, heated super hot, and put into little shapes, like cat or dog food. Regular chinchilla pellets are mixed together, put into the little pellet form and baked/dried. They crumble really easily, some more easily than others, but they all crumble easily. That's not the case with these. These pellets are hard, and they can't crumble at all. Everyone here loves them, we hand a couple out as treats sometimes, because they all hear the bag opening and beg to get some. They have special ingredients to boost the immune system, which is an added bonus. For the worse cases and/or lazy chewers, we give them only these pellets. For the more mild cases, we give them a 50/50 mix of Manna Pro So and this pellet. Then, we give no grains, ever. Nothing that isn't in the pellets. You'll see there is about a 1:2 ratio of phosphorus:calcium in pellets (or, good pellets, there should be that approximate ratio), that phosphorus in the pellets is the only phosphorus they get. You want to aim for at least a 1:2 ratio, the studies have shown that at least that ratio is beneficial to chins, but people suspect that the optimal ratio might be higher, like 1:3. It's just no one has studied that yet (officially). Here, we only give shredded wheat for constipation or soft poos, if one of the girls we have who gets an iron deficiency is having pale teeth, or if we feel they might be in a "treat rut", we give them only to chins who are not on this diet. If a chin on this diet has constipation or soft poos, we give them a bit of fruit or pumpkin for the constipation, and we give them activated charcoal and extra calcium (an extra TUMS) for soft poos. And of course take them in to the vet if it doesn't clear up right away. The main thing is, the chins on this diet never get grains.I won't say "never give your chins shredded wheat or oats" but I'd ask that people try to find other alternatives, just because those are overused (in my opinion). Calcium helps chins gain weight just as easily as grains do, but without the problems you find with grains. If you must give your chins oats or grains, I'd ask if you'd consider offsetting it with calcium. You could smash up some TUMS and dust the oats/grains with that, and then the phosphorus will bind to that calcium instead of to the calcium in the chins' bodies. You could give 1/2 a TUMS with the oats/grains, too. Shredded wheat is great for soft poos or sometimes constipation. It's good if your chin has been diagnosed with an iron deficiency (usually those are going to be chins who don't like to eat their pellets). But you don't really want to rely on it for treats too often, or it won't do the job when you need it to. I personally won't give more than one grain, more than one time a month. So if the chins get a shredded wheat, that's it for the month. We have plenty of rosehips, rosebuds, charcoal, herbs, etc that they can have. It's like Essentia said. I don't give nearly the grains I used to. We used to give the chins a supplement that had oats in it, it was very grains-heavy. That was several years ago, now. Then Cheel started having seizures, and I started reading about grains. Until then, I'd only read about nutrition and dietary things with the intention of helping our little dwarf gain and maintain weight. I hadn't even thought of looking at the effects of foods on the average chin. So I was shocked to learn about grains, and since then I have been rather anti-grains. It turned out Cheel has epilepsy and he had a liver infection as well. His epilepsy was being made worse (for lack of another way to word it) by the imbalance of phosphorus:calcium. His diet was way too grain-heavy, he was getting 1/2 tsp of oats a day. We cut them out and focused on calcium for him, and his epilepsy greatly improved. Jean: Yes, Esperanza's roots are no longer overgrown. They were bad enough to cause her to have head tilt, her eyes were bulging, she was a mess. The vet in Tennessee that she went to trimmed her teeth but basically gave no hope to the people who brought her in. He didn't do anything for her sideways tooth, didn't give any medicine at all. They said her roots were very overgrown. The woman who rescued her and sent her to us expected Esperanza to die, and we honestly did, too. I've never seen a chin in such rough shape. But, Esperanza doesn't have the overgrown roots anymore. That is due to a lot of things, but mainly the vitamin C in the rosehips and the calcium-focused diet. The last time she was in (when we had the mishap with our letter carrier returning the food instead of delivering it to us), she had tooth points and one of her back teeth was growing sideways, so it appears she has genetic malo, but also had an injury at some point that caused her tooth to grow the wrong direction. She will need treatment for that sideways tooth, but the tooth points/overgrown teeth, those are well-maintained by the diet.
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Post by narnibird on Dec 10, 2010 15:13:33 GMT -5
Oh, for real Bonnie. For now we could only come up with having other people order them for us (after we pp them the money). That letter carrier needs to be relocated. She keeps returning Nikolai's crochetted blanket to the lady to made it for him. It's been a month now that she has been returning that box. UGH
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Post by jean on Dec 10, 2010 16:56:58 GMT -5
this is just great news marne.. i really happy, plus with all this knowledge you have, i bet you just saved alot of future chins with some problems.
yah for marne!
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Post by booboo on Dec 10, 2010 17:49:12 GMT -5
Oh, for real Bonnie. For now we could only come up with having other people order them for us (after we pp them the money). That letter carrier needs to be relocated. She keeps returning Nikolai's crochetted blanket to the lady to made it for him. It's been a month now that she has been returning that box. UGH Did you all get the one I order for you? I would keep reporting this lady to her boss. That is terrible.
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Post by obcsed on Dec 10, 2010 18:32:29 GMT -5
OK I am truly excited by this thread. I have a malo chin that I worry about constantly. He is my first and I have one of those special close bonds with him. Actually I think the bond has developed because of all the trips to the vets and the recoveries from fillings and surgeries. I would dearly love to be able to turn him around. I've been preparing myself for losing him because his X-rays are horrifying. He is 5 years old and had his first filling when he was barely one. About six months ago my regular vet gave up on him because his teeth had gotten so over grown and out of shape. I took him to a great exotics vet to have surgery on his gums and to get his teeth filed down and realigned. It cost a fortune but the results were dramatic. I just recently had to have the first filing since the surgery. He has had a wet eye for 3 years but other than that and starting to drool and lose weight when things get out of alignment, he does pretty good.
I have a hundred questions. I'll start with the easiest. Do you just order the food from the UK on the web site? Also, thanks for the news that alfalfa hay is good for him. He loves the stuff but because other sources kept saying it should only be given as an occasional treat I've been trying to wean him off it.
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Post by Jodi on Dec 10, 2010 19:42:38 GMT -5
I find this thread really fascinating. Thanks Marne!
Jodi
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Post by narnibird on Dec 10, 2010 19:51:36 GMT -5
Bonnie, yes I got that one. I had to have Rachel order more for me for now, but I'll probably see if you can order it for me again and have it sent to Kjell. The letter carrier finally got an official complaint, so I'm hopeful that she will start delivering all our packages.
obcsed: Yes, I just order the 1.5 kg package from that link I posted. It has to be the Care+ in the blue-grey bag with the big picture of the chinchilla on it. (There are two kinds of food by Beaphar and the other kind I do not recommend).
Alfalfa will be fine for him. Malo chins often have trouble keeping their weight up, and that along with keeping their body heat up and any energy they use going about their day burns off the extra nutrition. I don't know the color of your chin's teeth, but really, unless you have a chin with too much calcium (which does happen sometimes), alfalfa won't hurt him. It will be good to wear down his teeth.
No problem Jodi! I was so thrilled when it worked out this way, I really want to share with anyone who might be interested. I'm so afraid of malo, so I want to try to do whatever I can to work against it. When Pepper started crumbling his pellets I panicked so bad, he's my baby you know, my first chin. It might not be a cure, but it has worked really well to delay the progression of malo so far.
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Post by booboo on Dec 10, 2010 20:37:59 GMT -5
Bonnie, yes I got that one. I had to have Rachel order more for me for now, but I'll probably see if you can order it for me again and have it sent to Kjell. The letter carrier finally got an official complaint, so I'm hopeful that she will start delivering all our packages. Glad you guys got it. I've been worried about it cause I never got the email saying it was shipped. Whenever you need me to order it again, just let me know. I'm glad to help.
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Post by narnibird on Dec 10, 2010 21:12:43 GMT -5
Ok, thank you!
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Post by feistychins on Dec 11, 2010 0:28:18 GMT -5
First I'd like to say that this is a great thread and well written. I have a few chins that have malo, but it is manageable right now. I just purchased some Vit. C powder to begin to add to their diet.
I would like to say something though and Marne if I am misinterpreting your comments, please correct me.
There is great info here for chins with malo and that includes the early signs of malo for people to start treatments and to get ahead of this horrible condition that chins suffer through.
It is not saying that grains are horrible or will cause malo (for every chin). I have seen people post something on a forum and people panic and suddenly start saying that something is going to make your chin very sick in one way or another. That is not what Marne is saying here. I believe the people on this forum are very intelligent and will know this, but I have seen the best intention of helping someone get twisted fast.
I had read before on a few web sites about the grain/phosphors/calcium issue with chins. A couple of web sites actually mimic each other. This research is fairly new and I do take it very seriously and believe it to be true. However, I also believe that some chins are more prone to malo and thus more vulnerable to calcium deficiencies.
Any 'treat', no matter how health it is when given in excess is not good for your chin. I have stated in another thread that I give treats to our chins rarely. So many chin people are obsessed with giving a shredded wheat or cheerios (which I never feed my chins), or another form of treat every day. That is too much under any circumstances.
I am just trying to say (especially for new chin guardians) that grains are not evil. If your chin has nice orange teeth and appears to show none of the usual signs of malo, they can get them occasionally.
I also want to emphasize, and Marne has said this already, if your chin does not have teeth issues, don't start going crazy to supplement them with extra calcium. I know from personal experience that can cause serious urinary/bladder problems for your chins if they are not deficient and have a built up of calcium which is just as serious.
Marne: I do want to ask you about the critical care balls you mix with the Tums and alfalfa. How big do you make them and they must be fairly dry?
Also, what veggies do you dehydrate?
Maybe I missed it, but how long of a time span was it from when you got the chins and started treatment to present time?
I am really surprised about the crushed rose hips. I know they are great, but my malo chins don't want to chew them, yet your girls did?
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Post by narnibird on Dec 11, 2010 1:15:55 GMT -5
Thank you for saying that, I agree totally. Grains are not all evil, for healthy chins, they are fine in moderation. I personally prefer to give the chins here something more natural, because I save shredded wheat for constipation/soft poo issues. But that's just me. We have all kinds of things, and like you said, Andrea, we don't give out treats every day here. Once the chins trust us, the treats become special occasion things, like on Fridays for Shabbat or for birthdays or holidays.
We make the critical care balls about half the size of a golf ball, unless there is more than one chin in the cage, then we make them about the size of a golf ball. They are fairly dry, about the consistency of modeling clay, I'd say. They're moist enough to mix the critical care, but dry enough to maintain the shape of the ball. I do that because in my heart I think if the chin can eat on his or her own, s/he should whenever possible. We will force feed if we have to, but that's pretty rare if we offer the critical care balls almost everyone will eat them.
We dehydrate carrot strips, kale, collard greens, regular potatoes, romaine, spring mix salads (they sell organic baby spring mix salads at the grocery store for about $3), radicchio. Sometimes butternut squash. We were doing spinach until the issue with e.coli a couple years back. I just felt nervous over that. Oh, and basil. Basil is a huge favorite here, they love the stalks and everything. I wash it all off very well, then I cut it up and dry it in our dehydrator. Before I had that, I dried them on a clean cookie sheet on warm/250 degrees until they were dry. You can hang the leafy greens and herbs in a dark cupboard to dry, too. When they are dry, the pieces are about the size of my pinky nail to the size of my thumb nail. They're small pieces.
We got Esperanza, Asherah and Aviva on August 6. We started them immediately on it. Before they came to us, I did send everything but the Beaphar pellets to the lady who had them, and she gave them the food and supplements for a month before they came to us. So I guess they actually did start at the very end of June, around the 28th. Rhody was on the pellets since June 16, and then Bentley, Pepper, Mei-Mei and Nadia, I can't remember when exactly we started them because we started each of them immediately upon seeing symptoms of malo, like drooling, pale teeth, eye issues and/or crumbling/powdering of pellets. It started working fairly quickly, but we didn't see real results until just recently. It took Esperanza about a month and a half after being here to stop drooling entirely. We got permission from the vet to see if this would work before we committed to another tooth filing, and it did end up working. If that makes sense.
Oh, Esperanza and Rhody didn't eat the crushed rosehips at first. We gave them powdered rosehips on their pellets to get the extra vitamin C in them. They eat the crushed rosehips now, though. Esperanza does not eat a lot of them, but she does eat a few. That's one of the things we watch for, if they start shying away from anything hard like that at all, we will bring them in right away to the vet.
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Post by feistychins on Dec 11, 2010 1:42:54 GMT -5
I so agree with this. I never have to hand feed the chins who currently have malo. I just mix up critical care or I will also soak pellets with water for about 10 minutes and then sprinkle the top with a little critical care and add more water until moist, but not soupy or like glue. I put it in a bowl and the chins eat it on their own and maintain great weight.
That is what they eat every day and they have gained weight. They eat a ton and are dancing at the cage door when I bring their bowl to them.
I have always put dehydrated carrots in my herbs mix because of the high vitamin A content. You made a great choice with the collard greens and kale which are both very high in calcium, so it would be great for malo chins.
I have rose hip powder on hand and was going to use that, but wanted to know about the crushed.
Only a six month turn around time for these chins to have such great changes is really great. Of course they have been through teeth filings too, but still, I know people who have put their chins through a couple of years of teeth filings and still have major problems with their chins teeth.
I am definitely going to try some of your ideas, thanks
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Post by piratesmom on Dec 12, 2010 1:06:22 GMT -5
You know ... I can't tell you guys how happy I am to see EVENTUALLY a talk like THAT on a Chinchilla Forum!!! A talk about new possibilities, new test results, diet results, infos that really help and explains the differences when to feed what, and not that usual talk, when people say mostly just what they heard from others without any real knowledge about it (and stuck in infos that are 30 years old sometimes in this way!!) I can imagine VERY well Marne, how you were treated when you posted those ideas first. In Germany we have some more Chinchilla owners, who feed herbs and also veggies, even fresh sometimes (but this people also know exactly what they do and studied this topics of nutrion for years!) - but it would have been impossible to tell that on other Forums. What you write here about the Calcium-diet for Malo Chins is so much different, then everything I heard before - but seems also so much more logic to me and I anyway also say "look to the results - and the one who has success must do anything right!" So also you Marne, I guess! I am also thankful, that Andrea mentioned the other side, that too much Calcium can also cause problems! Cause in fact so many people come in any panic or think other infos before were wrong, when they read something new. Just right now, we have this discussion in the other thread about calcium-LESS nutrition for Chins with calcium-crystals in their pee, what can lead to bladder stones. So it is SO IMPORTANT to make that clear, that different health issues need different diets and that also healthy Chins need a balanced diet to stay healthy!! But it is also GREAT, absolutley great to have people here, who KNOW other possibilities for special issues!!! I must really thank you very much!! This thread is so important, that I copied and safed it for me on the computer. You all are a real gain for this board! Oh - I almost forgot this. If I remember right, I saw Beaphar Products in our usual petshops. So THIS I would not even have to order from an internet-shop (like all Chinchilla-stuff I need myself ). So if I can help anyhow, let me know. It can be sadly pretty expensive to send packages from Germany to USA, but maybe it would be worth to compare it with the costs from UK. Just let me know, if I should look for the Beaphar pellets. At least for the shop I would have a customer card, that gives me some percent less, if I buy anything there Hugs Ilka
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Post by obcsed on Dec 12, 2010 6:59:31 GMT -5
I totally agree with Ilka. It is fabulous to see these kinds of discussions. I have a degree in molecular biology and some of the stuff I've seen posted on other sites has just made me cringe. A lot of it is hearsay and doesn't make sense biochemically. I've ordered the food from the UK and will be slowly adjusting Gizzy's diet. I have to sneak things in on him because he can be picky and I have a hard time getting him to maintain let alone gain weight. I'll need to see if I can find a source for the stuff to make the supplements but the pellets and the TUMS are easy to start with. He was very happy to get his alfalfa back. Wish us luck and keep the information coming.
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Post by narnibird on Dec 12, 2010 14:37:05 GMT -5
I'm glad I could post this, too, and then learn from other people. Also that it's balanced, it's not all twisted and distorted. I'm glad Andrea helped with that, because it's the last thing I'd want!
I do sometimes give small bits of fresh leafy vegetables to Pepper, because I've done that for him his whole life, but I don't do that with the other chins. I tried to give couple of them a small bit of fresh kale and they all barked at me. lol I think it's ok to do, if you're careful and use safe vegetables. I go a lot of crap over that, too, people kept saying I was going to kill my chins. But they said that about the dehydrated veggies, too.
It would be nice to see how much it would cost to ship, and how much it would cost for the bigger bag of the pellets.
I hope that Gizzy likes the food! Everyone here, when I opened the bag the first time, came up to the bars of their cages and pushed their little noses through in hope. lol It's hard, and that first night it was so neat, hearing all the crunching!
I can pm you obcsed about the mix. I can send you some of the calcium powder free if you'd like. I have so much of it because I mixed 3 pounds. lol I send it to folks who want to try it but don't want a large quantity. The calcium is ethically harvested and the rosehip powder and alfalfa powder are both organic.
Good luck!
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